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Narcissism & Porn; the Seductress that Leaves Men Nothing

Published on The N/C Marriage

Movie Transcript:

STEVE: Hi and welcome to Our Narcissistic & Codependent society.

The whole world is financially in debt at the moment, but we see this as a mirror of our deeper emotional indebtedness.

KIM: Emotional debt is created in a narcissistic/codependent society.

The narcissistic pattern is to seduce or sell the other person, but then keep taking even when they have nothing left to give in return.

We see this quite often in our society that worships celebrities and we are expected to give these celebrities all of our time, attention, and interest — even when these celebrities don’t even know us, and what they give in return is really pretty questionable in that give and take arrangement.

So this kind of arrangement where you just do something to seduce the other person and create an initial connection, but then keep taking and taking and expecting to be idolised, even when you really don’t have anything to give in return, obviously creates an emotional debt.

STEVE: That’s right, Kim. And the codependent pattern is to keep giving, even when the other person obviously doesn’t have anything to give in return.

Similar but quite different, a codependent person is the kind of person who wants to keep building up this kind of emotional debt . . .

KIM: Mmm . . .  that you didn’t necessarily really ask for?

STEVE: That’s right. But it all comes crashing down quite badly, because it’s not really a sustainable model.

KIM: Both patterns are about forcing a connection that’s not really natural and it’s not really free flowing.

Today, we are going to talk about Narcissism & Porn. Two subjects that are often in the media, but rarely discussed together.
Is there a link?

Steve, I know you think that there is.

STEVE: There’s lots of links actually, Kim.

The best place to start thinking about this is in the classical sense of narcissism.

Everybody knows the story . . . Narcissus was cursed to fall in love with his own reflection, and that reflection was something that he fell in love with and eventually perished viewing in the pond.

But why did that happen?

That happened for a very good reason. Before he was cursed and before he was looking at himself in the pond, he had a lot of admirers, but he would never really connect on any genuine level with anybody in his um town or village, or wherever you want to call it . . .

KIM: In the story. (Laughing.)

STEVE: (Laughing.) In the story.

Narcissus was someone who was trying to gain adoration from as many people as possible, but he wasn’t giving anything back in return. So it was an unequal exchange. It got to the point where there were so many unhappy people that the curse stepped in.

He was cursed to fall in love with his own reflection.

So, what does that tell us about porn?

It’s very similar, because the reflection is something two-dimensional and porn is something very two-dimensional as well. It becomes something we can’t pull ourselves away from. It’s addictive, but it’s not nourishing, so it eventually destroys us and for men, I think it’s really important we keep talking about this because porn doesn’t offer anything in return. It is a two-dimensional experience that doesn’t allow for growth, because number 1, porn competes with the people around you, it takes a lot of time away from the things you have to do in your life, the other people in your life. It doesn’t help you become a better person or become a better negotiator . . . become a better communicator. It doesn’t give you anything, really, and so there’ s a danger there.

But the bigger danger that I’d like to talk about with you now Kim, is that I think men (and women) who are addicted to porn feel as though they’re in control. They feel like they can dominant the experience by being in control, by being the king by being the emperor, by being a god, perhaps. Someone who can pick and choose any type of experience they want. That is quite an unnatural experience, and it creates quite unnatural people . . .

KIM: Mmm . . .

STEVE: People who can be overweight and disgusting, don’t take care of themselves, don’t attempt to try and engage in community anymore because they just feel like they have porn at their disposal so they feel very powerful in that scenario where porn is available to them. So I think, Kim, that there are multi-levels of dangers there, but power is the one we need to talk about with narcissism, because somebody who is narcissistic is very obsessed with power.

KIM: Mmm . . . And with fantasies of delusion and fantasies of grandeur, which I guess is exactly what porn is offering in that danger area. I mean, it’s giving the illusion that you can pick and choose any sexual partner that you want from all these amazingly beautiful women and men, where really, just like the reflection in the pond that Narcissus fell in love with, in the story, it’s just a two-dimensional reflection. It can’t offer them love in return. It’s actually, in its very nature, a cold and not really natural experience.

But this is not moralistic — this is coming from an emotional perspective.

STEVE: So porn also, Kim, becomes an obsession — just like it did with Narcissus in the story. It becomes an obsession where there is very little growth happening on a personal level. That is one of the things that is so important. On a personal level, we need to be able to have other people in our lives who can reflect back our behavior to us. I am very lucky — Kim and I have been together for 24 years now — so we have this great exchange where I get a lot of feedback from her, and she gets a lot of feedback from me about how it is that I’m behaving.

KIM: (Laughing.)

STEVE: And how it is I relate to other people, and she can give me an objective point of view with how I relate to other people. And you know we have arguments about how we relate with each other all the time. (Laughing.)

KIM: (Laughing.)

STEVE: But that two-way exchange gives us that fertile ground to grow and become better people, where porn is almost the exact opposite. It’s an abyss.

KIM: Mmm . . .

STEVE: There’s nowhere for us to go with it. It just becomes a consumption. It becomes consuming. It becomes obsessional.

KIM: Like Narcissus’ cold and empty pond that he ends up lonely and dying in the story.

 

You know, we hear a lot of criticism these days of kids and social media and how that is narcissistic. Teenagers taking selfies has nearly become the definition of narcissistic. Well, I don’t know? I think the kids are mainly taking pictures of themselves to share with each other, and even if those pictures aren’t completely realistic all the time of themselves, they’re probably a lot closer to being realistic and what they are doing in sharing them is really inviting an exchange that’s on an equal level with other people.

STEVE: Yes.

KIM: And I think they get way too much flack for that. There really should be more attention placed on the fact that this porn epidemic that we’ve really got happening on the planet right now — which is a social experiment of unprecedented magnitude, and that we are really seeing some very well documented and catastrophic results from in terms of what it’s doing to divorce rates, what it’s doing to families, and particularly what it’s doing to men, to the point where you are really having a lot of men choosing to opt out from this and saying, “I don’t want to engage with this any longer”, because they see it’s hurting them.

Hopefully from this little segment that we’ve done today, we can start a broader conversion where we start making more of a link between porn and narcissistic behavior, and you know leave the kids and their selfies a little bit more space and a little bit more respect.

STEVE: (Laughing.) I agree. I think we should celebrate our youth while we have it!

KIM: Absolutely.

STEVE: And let them have their photos, because you know before long you’re old and you’re not as photogenic as you used to be.

But Kim, I think it’s also very important we raise another topic here — a topic that links narcissism and porn, and that topic is shame.

KIM: Mmm . . .

STEVE: Nobody really wants to be associated with porn. I know a lot of guys laugh about it. There are a lot of jokes about it. In our work industry, there are a lot of guys around, and every now and then they will joke about it, but it’s not something they really are very happy to be associated with in a broader context in their lives. So, you can make a small joke about it here and there, but really the story I am thinking about now Kim is back many years ago, I had an argument with Kim and I said to you hon, I said “Ahh yeah, well all the guys watch porn so it’s no big deal, you know? You shouldn’t really be worried about it.”

KIM: You pretended it was my problem — I was just jealous.

STEVE: That’s right, I tried to say hey it’s your problem — everybody watches it. But in fact, I remember this very clearly — you said to me, “Oh well i f it’s not so much of a problem, Steve, I will let [name withheld] know that you think it’s okay to be watching porn.” Now, the name withheld was somebody I was working really closely with. He was a mentor for me. He was somebody who was introducing me to some wonderful business opportunities at the time. He was somebody that I had a lot of respect for, and who had a very solid and clean-living background.

KIM: (Laughing.) He was actually an ex-Baptist minister.

STEVE: That’s right. And he wouldn’t have supported my views that porn was okay and that most guys were okay about it. So that did actually hit home for me, and I said, “Actually, no I don’t want to really be associated with porn.”

KIM: You were horrified about the idea of him knowing, and you actually realised then how embarrassed you were about it, really.

STEVE: Well, and that was enough to shame me into really taking stock. And I want the guys that are listening to take that in. I mean, you really don’t want to be associated with it. It’s as common as anything. It doesn’t give you anything. It take so much away from you. So it really is something to think about, and that’s why we are talking about it on the show today.

KIM: And of course it’s attractive. We are hard wired to be attracted to the opposite sex — well, not everyone — but to be attracted to each other sexually. That’s normal and that attraction is normal but just in the same way we would like to eat chocolate cake or ice cream all the time, and it’s really not a good idea I think it’s really worth talking about these dangers.

Because, while we know the chocolate cake and the ice cream might make us overweight, there’s not enough people talking about the dangers of porn and the dangers of it leading to very real emotional patterns of dysfunction that now have become so prevalent in our society, and really in our opinion are causing most of the chaos and most of the destruction, and most of the inequality and most of the violence that we see happening on the planet and we really have to work to change this on every level , and this is just one of the places where we can look at it and begin to start. Because, what kind of connection do we want to form with people? Do we want to learn to form connections with people that are easy and are flowing and are based on mutual attraction and mutual interest, relationships that are three-dimensional and include an emotional richness to them and depth to them that include all of our senses and also include our emotional senses.

This is what I think we all are really longing for. We are longing to be known. We are longing to be loved. We are longing to be held. A deep and committed sexual relationship is something that doesn’t necessarily get boring over time, as I think the media and people have really portrayed it to be. Of course it changes. Of course as you have children and they grow up, and as you get older, sex isn’t’ the same as it was and I think our needs change as we get older as well, and what we are looking for from it. This whole idea that we should all be running around and feeling as sexual and virile and pumped up as we were when we were in our teens or 20s is really a bit of insecurity. I think we really need to start rejecting that when that’s forced onto us — those ideas — because I think most of the people that are forcing those ideas on us are really usually trying to sell us something. And the things they are trying to sell us aren’t necessarily things that are going to nourish us, or are going to help us find that love and belonging that were really looking for.

STEVE: The marketing world really do have a lot to answer for, because they drive a lot of our insecurities, but if we really stop and take stock, we really do know that having that strong connection with the person we love will over time build into something that is so beneficial for us. We can’t listen to the advertisers. They will have you think the opposite.

KIM: Mmm . . .

STEVE: If you are in a sustainable, loving, gentle relationship with someone for a long time, you are not a big consumer. But if you are in any way anxious or insecure about yourself, you are a fantastic consumer.

KIM: (Laughing.) Yeah.

STEVE: So just remember that. And listen to Kim and Steve . . .  because we’ve “got the goss”.

KIM: (Laughing.) Absolutely.

Well, thanks for joining me, Steve, and having the courage and determination to get these segments started, even when I know you are really sick and you should be in bed . . . listen to your poor throat! I am going to take care of you now.

Thanks for joining us. A little later this week, we will be doing a segment on porn and codependence.

STEVE: Good night.

KIM: Bye!

Signs of Narcissism in Your Marriage . . .

Are you a narcissist? Are you married to a Narcissist? Do you know the difference between love that hurts and love that heals? We have the information you have been looking for:

Learn the Signs of Narcissism

Narcissism & Porn a Modern Fairytale: 

Once upon a time there was a successful plantation owner, who had two sons he hoped would one day take over caring for his estate which included livestock, fruit trees and date palms. 

His wife had worked side by side with him for many years building a family, harvesting fruit and fields, preserving the excess and caring for their children and animals. Often he would instruct his boys on the importance of choosing a strong wife who would work beside them in similar fashion.

Then one day his eldest son came home with a box under his arm, asking if he could have a private dwelling built for him and his new bride. 

His father was ecstatic and asked, “Who is your bride? Is she as strong and wise as your mother? Can she work a full day without complaining?”

His son said, “No she cannot work at all – she cannot lift a thing in fact.” 

His father said, “What are you stupid? Why would you marry such a women? Does she come with a dowery?” 

The son said, “No in fact I must pay $49 a month and we will need a phone line put in for me to possess her.”

His father said, “What are you stupid, you expect me to pay for a lazy wife that does nothing? I see now that her hair must be fragrant as jasmine and she must have some kind of magical silken skin that has enchanted you from the first time you touched her?”

The son said. “No I cannot actually touch her, because the truth is my bride is quite magical.”  

You must be bewitched to want to marry a woman who doesn’t work and who you cannot even touch. I guess this magical woman must be extraordinarily devoted to you?”

His son said, “No, in fact she only exists to have sex with other men.” 

The father by this stage was gasping for breath and hardly new what to say next. Finally bewildered and in a confused state he would never recover from said, “For you to want to set up house with such a woman I guess she must be some kind of beauty?”

His son said, “Ahh yes she is beautiful in fact with my new magic box I can view and fantasise possessing any type of beautiful women you can imagine and although these women have sex with other men  – I get to watch everything in detail just like watching the animals when it is time for breeding.”

The father said,  “Really? But what will become of the estate your mother and I have built? How will you raise children with such a woman in your home? What will become of all I have hoped for in you?” and then he said, “But really you get to watch everything?” 

The son said,  “Yes everything”.  

Then the father said, “Ok give me a look at this magical box of yours.” 

So all the men in the house got their own magic boxes and this was the end of the farm and the estate.

After his wife tried for years to take care of everything on her own, at last she died from exhaustion and then in time the crops and animals all died too. The men had become fat and lazy sitting in front of their magic boxes but at last couldn’t find anything to eat and could not pay the internet bill. When the raiders came the man and his sons, once fit and tanned wealthy landholders, were now not even fit to be taken as slaves and so were left to die in a neighbouring paddock, the laughing stock of the whole region. 

And no one lived happily ever after. 

This Post Has 9 Comments
  1. I think you are misunderstanding some of the motivation to indulge in porn. For myself, I only enjoy porn that represents my own past IRL experiences, and based on the vast cataloging by the porn sites of porn subjects and categories, I’d guess most people only want to watch porn that represents their real experiences. Porn is not so much a fantasy of wishes unfulfilled as it is a reminder of past fulfillment, at least it has been for me and seems for most people.
    Thank you for your outreach
    Gerre

    1. Hi Gerre, While that may be your motivation, I am afraid it is not the norm. Sadly most boys and girls these days are exposed to (and interested in) porn before they even go through puberty.

      1. Firstly, I apologise for responding perhaps inappropriately, to a comment not directed to me .
        I had record of another email address, “…[email protected]…” to reply to in the past and am hoping that my intended target recognizes themselves and sees this. I immensely enjoyed the email I received with functioning links to various extremely insightful articles of psychological and philosophical bent. Drama in my life (and resources) have precluded a more active response for me at the moment. I have been known to nit-pick, and had encountered several errors, perhaps missed in the proofreading of the material. I would appreciate knowing if any input of such detail is welcome, and where it best might be forwarded. Thank you.

  2. Great insight, guys. The 2D aspect of pornography (the fact that it’s a no-intimacy required experience), and the power of being able to pretend you can have any woman (or man) you choose, without ever having to grow, or groom…. I think that just hits the nail on the head.

    I also think, maybe, there is something to the fact that there are a certain group of narcissists out there, who get a feeling of power from degrading women sexually… and if they aren’t willing, or able, to act out those kinds of “fantasies” with a real life partner, then perhaps pornography offers an opportunity for them to experience it vicariously (?). Just a thought…

    ***P.S. I don’t know if you’ve realized but, probably because the word ‘porn’ is in your title, the screen of “recommended videos” that comes up after your video ends…..well, they’re rather “colorful”. Thought I should point that out, just in case you weren’t aware. LOL

    Thanks for all the work you do.

  3. Thank you for these articles. They are so clarifying and helpful. Your definitions of narcissism and codependency are so clear and to the point. Just by reading this article and the one on porn and codependency, so much has been cleared up, and so many questions answered and behaviours explained. Very beneficial indeed.

  4. What u have said is so true, I was with my husband for 21 yrs he did this to me every night while I cried myself to sleep every night he never wanted to hear my feelings I was made out to be mental being told I’m making a big deal out of nothing, while other times getting caught he would laugh at me and carry on doing it. It kills the partner very slowly in every way possible making u think and feel it is u why he is doing it, now going through divorce.

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